I've checked with the editor of MoneyWeek, and yes it is genuinely their production. The reason why it looks different from the rest of their output is because it was written by their marketing department. And that of course gives the clue as to what this is all about. Whether or not they genuinely believe there will be a disastrous collapse is not the point, though to be fair MoneyWeek is generally fairly pessimistic about the UK and has been forecasting a property market collapse for several years now. No, this is all a marketing ploy. They want to scare you into buying a subscription to their magazine.
I could just say "Don't do it", but actually as this bulletin is seriously scary I think it would be more useful if I took it apart and debunked it. So here goes.
The first thing that the bulletin does is establish credibility by listing all the events that MoneyWeek has correctly forecasted in the last few years. So they claim credit for forecasting the 2008 oil price spike - which actually is a much under-rated phenomenon which is not often discussed. And the reason it is not discussed is because of the financial crisis and the fall of Lehman, which happened the same year. Did MoneyWeek forecast that? No, they did not. They claim that they warned people to "stay away from the big banks". But Lehman wasn't a big bank. Nor was Northern Rock, or Bradford & Bingley, or even HBOS. Nor were the Icelandic banks. Nor were the hundreds and hundreds of US lenders that went bust. MoneyWeek DID NOT forecast the financial crisis.
Then they claim that five years ago they forecast the slide in the pound, and that it has now suffered a "long decline". Let's check this, shall we? Here's the GBP/USD exchange rate chart for the last 7 years:

click here for larger version
Five years ago is January 2008 - by which time the pound had already fallen from its 2007 high. Doesn't take a genius to forecast something that is already happening. Admittedly the pound did then fall off a cliff because of the base rate cut later in 2008, but it then climbed back up a bit and has held at around the same level ever since."Long term decline"? Doesn't look like it to me. And what about that dramatic drop? Oh wait, they didn't forecast the fall of Lehman and the subsequent deep recession, did they - you know, the deepest recession since the 1930s? So obviously they couldn't forecast the exceptional measures taken by the Bank of England to support the economy, including deliberately weakening the pound - of which Mervyn King is still rather proud.
Then they also say that three years ago they told everybody to SELL EUROPE. So that''s January 2010. When exactly did the Eurozone crisis start? The BBC has helpfully provided a timeline here. Here's an extract:
2009
Slovakia joins the euro.
Estonia, Denmark, Latvia and Lithuania join the Exchange Rate Mechanism to bring their currencies and monetary policy into line with the euro in preparation for joining.
In April, the EU orders France, Spain, the Irish Republic and Greece to reduce their budget deficits - the difference between their spending and tax receipts.
In October, amid much anger towards the previous government over corruption and spending, George Papandreou's Socialists win an emphatic snap general election victory in Greece.
In November, concerns about some EU member states' debts start to grow following the Dubai sovereign debt crisis.
In December, Greece admits that its debts have reached 300bn euros -the highest in modern history.
Greece is burdened with debt amounting to 113% of GDP - nearly double the eurozone limit of 60%. Ratings agencies start to downgrade Greek bank and government debt.
2010
In January, an EU report condemns "severe irregularities" in Greek accounting procedures. Greece's budget deficit in 2009 is revised upwards to 12.7%, from 3.7%, and more than four times the maximum allowed by EU rules.
Well, well. It seems that here too MoneyWeek "forecast" something that was already happening. It didn't take much imagination to realise that the Greek crisis was going to affect the countries tied to it by a single currency. And "Europe" is a rather wide defnition, don't you think? Here are the yields on 10 year German bunds over the period 2007-2012 (just to remind you, falling yields=rising prices and vice versa):
I hope MoneyWeek have a disclaimer on their investment advice, because they could have some very angry investors who took their advice to "Sell Europe". Germany is part of Europe.....
Anyway, that's enough of debunking MoneyWeek's claim to be clairvoyant. Now let's look at what exactly they are forecasting this time and whether it is reasonable.
1. The Debt Tsunami
The first claim they make is that Britain is about to be overwhelmed by a "tidal wave" of debt. And they produce some very scary charts indeed to show how the UK's national debt has risen since 1900. Now those charts come from a reputable source and are indeed correct. However, they show the NOMINAL amount of debt - which means they take no account of inflation. It's amazing what happens to your debt figures when you remove the effects of inflation:
Here's the chart from MoneyWeek showing UK nominal debt in £:
Now here's the same chart adjusted for inflation:
Doesn't look quite so scary now, does it? Though there is still a spike in the last few years. But I haven't finished yet. Most people would agree that the general standard of living in the UK is considerably higher now than it was in 1900, or indeed in 1950, or even 1970. That's because our national production has risen - considerably, actually. Which means we are wealthier than we were before. So if we look at our debt in relation to GDP, this happens:
We would have to suffer an absolutely catastrophic drop in GDP for our debt to be anything like the sort of burden on the economy that it was in the 1920s and 30s and after World War II.
Ok, so MoneyWeek's use of debt statistics here is distinctly dodgy. Their next chart is actually correct and reasonable. Britain does indeed have a large private debt burden and has the third highest total debt level in the world. MoneyWeek doesn't mention that nearly half of that comes from the financial sector, in which the UK is the world leader and whose business is intermediating debt to create credit. That does rather distort the figures, really.
And Money Week then go on to add in future liabilities as if they all have to be paid today. Sigh. No, my children don't need to receive their pensions yet. Nor do I, actually. So there is no reason to show those liabilities as falling due now. That is not to say we don't have a FUTURE problem with unfunded liabilities. But MoneyWeek is forecasting imminent collapse. I really can't see how the UK can collapse in 2013 due to liabilities that don't fall due for another 20, 30, even 50 years.
Oh, and they compare the UK to Eurozone countries. They aren't comparable. We really aren't going to end up like Greece, for reasons that I explain here.
So that debt tidal wave looks like it could be surfable. On to the next scary subject.
2. The Overblown Welfare State
And another dodgy chart. In fact the same thing again, but for govt spending instead of debt. Here we go:
UK govt nominal net spending in £
Adjusted for inflation:
And related to the increase in national production (GDP):
Where exactly is this unaffordable growth in the welfare state? Yes, public spending has indeed grown in nominal terms, and much of that can be laid at the door of more generous health and welfare spending. But we have got richer too, and the thing about being richer is that you can afford things that poorer people can't afford. As MoneyWeek's readers should know very well.
So is their claim that "Britain is broke" really true? Here's what they say:
If the UK had been a business or an individual, we’d have been declared bankrupt by now. We’d have been forced to sell our business premises or our home and would have been housed in a run-down flat long ago.Er, no we wouldn't. You see, although we have a lot of debt and we spend a lot of money, we EARN a lot too. Our charts versus GDP look pretty good, really. I'd say we were definitely a going concern.
3. The great collapse
They take about 15,000 words to do it, but in a nutshell MoneyWeek forecast that rising interest rates will cause failure of the banking system, collapse of the bond and property markets and hyperinflation.
Firstly, let me say that MoneyWeek are correct to make the point that the UK's borrowing costs are historically low, and debt would be more of a burden if they were higher. No doubt their investors would like rates to be higher, which might be why they are forecasting that they will rise - talking things up often does work. At the moment there are no signs whatsoever of interest rates getting off the floor, so this looks very much like wishful thinking to me.
But then they lose the plot and start comparing the UK to Greece again. Greece had falsified its debt position and deliberately misled investors as to the true state of its public finances. Is it any wonder there was a buyer's strike? And what on earth is the reason for supposing that the UK would suffer the same fate?
And it gets worse. Further down they compare the UK to Argentina. This is frankly silly: a large part of Argentina's problem was its attempt to hold a currency peg to the US dollar at the expense of its economy. The only time the UK ever came close to trashing its economy in the same way was 1988-92 when it was pegging its currency to the Deutschmark at too high a rate, which forced the economy into recession. The UK was eventually forced out of the ERM and now has an absolute horror of pegged or managed exchange rates. Sterling is fully floating and likely to remain so. No way are we going to suffer Argentina's fate.
The property market crash they forecast I think is possible. I don't think the housing market corrected sufficiently in 2007-9 and it still has further to fall to reach a sustainable price level. In the short term this would indeed hurt people who were over-mortgaged and financially overstretched. And it would annoy the people (mostly middle-aged and elderly) who bought their properties when prices were much lower and were expecting to profit from house price appreciation. Tough, frankly. But we have had housing market crashes before and recovered. Why should this be any different?
The bank failure that they forecast simply isn't believable. The run on Northern Rock was caused by the inept handling of what was originally a liquidity crisis by both the Treasury and the Bank of England. There are measures in place now to ensure that banks really can obtain emergency liquidity - the Bank of England now has a proper discount window facility like the Fed, which it did not have in 2007. And banks actually DO have more money: they are being required to have more capital and more liquid assets to protect them from bank runs. But more importantly, it is absolute nonsense to say that the UK won't have enough money to bail out its banks. This isn't the Eurozone. The UK has a central bank and issues its own currency. It can NEVER run out of its own money. As I've said numerous times now, the risk for currency issuers is not insolvency, but inflation. Which brings me to the next scary story.
4. The inflation monster
There are two parts to this: firstly that we would see a return to the inflation of the 1970s, and secondly that the public debt level would so erode confidence in the currency that there would be Weimar-style hyperinflation. These two are not remotely related, which demonstrates how very muddled this paper is. I shall take each in turn.
The background to the economic problems of the 1970s was the breakup of the Bretton Woods managed exchange rate system, the Yom Kippur war leading to the oil price shock of 1973, and a property market collapse leading to the Secondary Banking Crisis of 1973. But underlying it all was inept fiscal and monetary management of the economy. Inflation had in fact been rising steadily since the devaluation of the pound in 1967, and the wrong measures were used to contain it. We are, frankly, MUCH better at managing inflation now. Yes, we have had slightly higher inflation than we would really like in the last few years. But in no way has inflation been allowed to run "out of control", and there is absolutely no reason to assume that that would change. I debunked the 1970s inflation monster myth here.
The idea that the UK's debt level would cause Weimar-style hyperinflation is also rubbish. The roots of Weimar's hyperinflation lay in the First World War and its aftermath, particularly the imposition of war reparations which far exceeded the ability of a war-damaged economy to pay them, as Keynes noted, and which had to be paid in foreign currency (gold). As far as I can see, the UK has not recently lost a world war and there are no claims for punitive reparations that I know of. Nor does the UK have particularly high levels of debt denominated in foreign currencies - unlike Hungary, for example. Most of its debt is in sterling. And as I've already noted, sterling debts can always be serviced - perhaps at the price of slightly higher inflation, but not hyperinflation. Whoever wrote this should have done some basic research into the causes of hyperinflation - here, for example.
And finally we get to what this is really all about:
5. GUBMINT COULD STEAL YOUR MONEY! Subscribe to our magazine to find out how to protect your wealth.....
Oddly enough, this is actually the strongest part of this bulletin. They really did do their homework on the occasions in the past when governments have fleeced their own citizens. And I have to admit that it is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that UK savers could indeed suffer savings confiscation in a variety of ways. Indeed they already are, through negative real interest rates. Am I bothered? Probably not. I lose much less sleep over the prospect of savers losing their savings than I do over the prospect of ordinary people losing their jobs and their homes.
I think it is very sad indeed that a respected investment magazine like MoneyWeek is so desperate for business that it is resorting to despicable scaremongering. This bulletin is poorly researched, badly written and presents completely the wrong image. I'm not about to advise anyone what to do with their money, but I can certainly think of much better things to do with mine than subscribe to this rag. This marketing ploy by MoneyWeek is a very, very bad mistake.

Debunking masterclass!
ReplyDelete"written by their Marketing department" is a key phrase here.
ReplyDeleteMoneyweek got it spectacularly right on gold from about 2002 onwards and for that and predicting the property crash (which encouraged me to sell before it happened) I will keep subscribing.
Sovereigns dont go bankrupt they wither on the vine. Bankruptcy is actually a line in the sand based on resolution and forgiveness which in a lot of ways would be better process.
ReplyDeleteAs soon as it is established the UKPLC are living within our means then Trust can be restored. Fiat money is Trust.
I agree with you about the need for debt forgiveness and resolution in cases where sovereigns really can't support their debt burdens and their currencies are under threat because of breakdown of trust (as you correctly say).
DeleteBut that is not where UKPLC is. The charts I produced clearly show that the UK IS living within its means. There is no need for this scaremongering.
The problem in the UK is private, not public, debt.
So is it like Spain then? I read their government is prudent, but the private debt went bust?
DeleteYes, and Ireland. Which is why I want to grab this government by the shoulders and scream in its face "IT'S THE PRIVATE DEBT, STOOPID!"
DeleteI completely agree with your views Francis. Sadly our governments at the moment have a habit of socialising that private debt.
DeleteI read that last month, a histrionics masterclass worthy of the Daily Mail. Though why anyone would read it all, is beyond me. Do Marketing/PR scare tactics actually drive magazine sales?
ReplyDeletePresumably they think so. But I think it's really sad that MoneyWeek apparently wants to turn itself into the UK version of Zero Hedge.
DeleteWhether or not they genuinely believe there will be a disastrous collapse is not the point? Indeed, that seems to be the whole point.
ReplyDeleteNo it isn't. The whole point is selling magazine subscriptions.
DeleteYou cannot tell other people what their own points are, but only speak for yourself. Maybe they simply want to generate more business, or maybe they just believe in what they wrote, or maybe those 2 points are even both at play simultaneously, but whatever the case, only they can know the answer to the question you sought to clear up for us.
ReplyDeleteThe sole purpose of a marketing department is to drum up business. And the editor of MoneyWeek personally told me that this paper was written by their marketing department. I stand by what I said.
DeleteIt's almost like you think marketing must be deceitful. You can market what you think to be the truth, you know, even if your end wind up being false; the 2 are not mutually exclusive. There was a recent conference in Australia, Sydney, attended by a very esteemed audience - including some of the nation's top business elite (bank CEOs and the like) and similar types of thinking were discussed.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should write a piece about that, too? I would love to hear your thoughts.
Let Banks Fail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzAPcn8QxBI
I can't possibly comment on whether or not they believe what they wrote. I'm not a mind-reader. However, the PURPOSE of this article is clear. It is to sell magazine subscriptions, not to inform the public. That is what I said in the post.
DeleteIsn't the company's goal to sell magazines BY informing the public? You are splitting hairs, dear Frances, to suit your personal prerogatives - no marketing department is very likely to think they can sell magazine in the information age by NOT informing the public. Perhaps be less quick to ascribe evil motives to the actions of people. Have more faith! Most people are pretty good.
DeleteI haven't ascribed any evil motives to anyone. I have simply pointed out the purpose of a marketing department. The gross errors in this bulletin may simply be caused by ignorance. After all, marketing people generally aren't economists.
DeleteYou are no more capable of identifying my "prerogatives" (sic - I think you may mean "prejudices") than I am of identifying the motives of those who wrote the bulletin. You have just committed the very offence of which you wrongly accuse me.
I must now remind you to abide by the rules of my site, which are:
- please confine your comments to the subject of the post
- please refrain from personal attacks on me or any other commenters.
You are straying dangerously close to the second of these.
Sorry Peter but did you actually read the article? It is essentially a long list of false juxtapositions and textbook FUD marketing. Mind you, you do have to admire their track record, as I believe they've predicted 17 of the last 4 market downturns.
DeleteMuch appreciated contribution
ReplyDeleteGreat debunking, and this ukpublicspending.co.uk website is a great find. But it's still missing the ability to do a graph I've been wanting to see for a while: show public debt at a cash flow level (gilt issuance and redeeming and actual coupon payments, gross and net) as a percentage of GDP, and then plot that against total spending (which they do have). It probably looks much less frightening, and more meaningful, that the nominal graphs that don't capture interest rates other than time shifted, and thus miss most of the current action. Given that they're trying to argue about solvency, cash flow is what they should be looking at. Anyone knows of a data source for that (UK and others)?
ReplyDeleteI think a similar observation goes some way to explain the "missing" property crash in the UK: if you look at UK house prices in term of what it cost to own one on a 20% deposit plus interest on the 80% at the interest-only mortgage rate, which is much closer to what actual buyers pay than the nominal, you probably can see both a crash and relatively sustainable numbers. There is a fat tail in the UK's mortgage market peculiar exposure to variable rates, but then you need to believe the "rates must go up" brigade (ratebugs?) for that to become a real problem.
Hi cig
DeleteMoneyWeek fell foul of the same problem - they posted a chart showing how interest rates have declined over the last thirty years but were not able to show the connection between that and the declining cost of debt service in relation to GDP. If I can find the data sets I might have a go at it myself, at least for the coupon payments (not sure I can cope with issues and redemptions, and nearly all debt is rolled anyway).
To my mind, the UK housing market is being propped up by two things: 1) very low interest rates, which benefit the large proportion of UK homeowners with variable rate mortgages 2) forbearance on distressed mortgages because of risk to bank balance sheets. I'm no ratebug, and as homes are important to very many people I'd be happy for rates to remain very low while the mortgage debt overhang clears - most people have repayment mortgages, not interest-only. But the second of these has to stop (which means ending or severely restricting interest-only mortgages, which are one of the main means of forbearance). Government also has done its fair share in propping the housing market, most recently through the Funding for Lending scheme, most of which is going into mortgages.
It's a small point but I think using interest-only is a slightly better modelling/normalisation as it isolates the true cost of buying a house (repayment is a form of savings, interest is payment for a service, broadly), and it makes only a small difference anyway: with typical long mortgages the repayment component on year one is pretty small, so whether you include or not repayment or not you should get similar numbers for the "monthly cost" of ownership, which is the primary driver of prices (the nominal price follows from the monthly cost of a typical mortgage, not the other way, I think).
DeleteThe interest-only number is also useful in that it can be compared with rent (capital rental cost = regular rent - servicing costs).
A wonderful piece Frances.
ReplyDeleteThese 'End of Britain' posts have been going the rounds for some time now and are clearly designed to market their journal (which does contain some interesting information of course). But was it written by MoneyWeek or [conspiracyalert] by one Gideon Osborne anxious to persuade people that there is no alternative to his austerity programmes[/conspiracyalert].
Now there's a thought ....
They may not like what you have to say but if they believed their marketing tripe I wonder why they are still in the UK and haven't up-sticks by now.
DeleteYou might write to Merryn Somerset Webb, the editor of MoneyWeek, offering to write a (paid for) column on your views of the future and how it may affect investors.
All the commentators on MW are themselves investors, claiming expertise but which always raises the question of whether they are bumping things for their own benefit. An honest appraisal by someone as knowledgeable as yourself could be a big bonus.
I like the charts. Wonderful picture of what war does mean for the economy and 'welfare':).
ReplyDeletePlease consider that the GDP does contain asset transfers, the whole bunch of financial services and the growing service industries in general (growing again). It is wise to compare a somehow similar product mix.
http://twitpic.com/buaecn
ReplyDeleteHERR Schaeuble;
"Britain has a higher state debt than the eurozone average and I don't even want to mention the United States of America," Schaeuble said
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9809154/Britain-has-more-debt-than-the-eurozone-says-Germanys-Wolfgang-Schaeuble.html
I'm sure it does. And I'm sure the US does, too. But they have their own central banks and their own currencies. Eurozone countries don't. That's the difference.
DeleteThat's another story.
DeleteThe idea of the Euro system goes back to the time after WWII 60s. Why?
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-43257718.html
Interview with Karl Blessing, 1971 (bottom)
Yes, if you were to create a European central bank, a Federal Reserve System of Europe, which is autonomous from the government - and within the system, the government would only be able to finance up to a certain degree, budget deficits - then you can fix it.
(Google Translated)
If not bashing the French, bash the Brits - thats the game.
I don't want to go beyond. See this statement as a political one - internal affairs.
We can print to infinity.....they can't basically!
ReplyDelete"The background to the economic problems of the 1970s was the breakup of the Bretton Woods managed exchange rate system"
ReplyDeleteL.J.P.: "The British pound sterling became the first currency to meet the international requisites of a free gold coin standard: that is, to become the standard-of-value as well as the reserve & transactions currency of the world.
Under the aegis of the Bank of England, the pound sterling came to be regarded as "good as gold". The paper money issued by the Bank, & the book account balances of its customers, could be converted into a given quantity of gold of a given fineness on demand. So great was the confidence of international, as well as domestic customers, the bank needed very little gold to meet its obligations. Balances of customers were almost always shifted within the bank.
All this came about without a single gold standard act being passed by Parliament. The establishment of a free gold coin standard requires faith and confidence. This state of mind cannot be created by passing laws or issuing edicts. The British "official" gold standard began in 1816 and continued until the outbreak of WWI in 1914. It was reestablished in 1925, limped along, and finally disappeared into the maelstrom of the Great Depression in 1931."
Excessive trade deficits ended all of this.
L.J.P.: "It is economically advantageous for creditor nations, & for the world economy, if creditor nations operate with trade deficits: deficits proportionate to their creditor status. That is, the deficits should be large enough to enable the nationals of debtor nations to acquire a sufficient amount of foreign exchange to enable them to serve their international debts."
That's a very important insight from LJP. Japan has operated as a debtor country with a trade surplus for a long time. But we are a bit short of creditor countries operating with trade deficits. As far as I can see the rule at the moment generally is trade deficit AND fiscal deficit, or trade surplus AND fiscal surplus. Maybe that's where we're going wrong. It is certainly a large part of the problem in the Eurozone.
Delete“Sterling is in the process of losing its safe haven status,” says John Stopford, head of fixed income at Investec Asset Management.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7d21ff98-64b7-11e2-934b-00144feab49a.html#axzz2ITqid13S
Frances, I seriously think you may get drafted for work at the BoE! Whether you should choose to opt in at this moment, however, is an entirely different question; the future for the poor, old UK does not look so bright
Hi Peter,
DeleteYes, it looks that way. In which case sterling will fall, which should be good for British exporters but not so good for consumers dependent on imports. It would also force up interest rates on government borrowing, but I guess the BoE can always do more QE to squash them again!
I don't regard the future of the UK as any worse as the future of any other country, in fact I think it is better than many. But I think the pervasive climate of fear is a large part of the cause of the current paralysis. Which is why I hate scaremongering publications like this one - they squash initiative and feed stagnation. Actually this one was quite an easy one to deal with: I've seen others that are just as gloomy and far better argued. But I still disagree that civilisation as we know it is going to come to an end any time soon.
Hi Frances,
DeleteGood for exporters? Please consult the latest figures re recent UK devaluation vis a vis exports and their growth re market share in the UK economy that's occurred say over the last 10 years, or just 5. The connexion, albeit a positive one as you insinuate, is quite far from optimal, I think you may probably agree after some quick research.
Well, that would be because of the high import content of British exports. It's never quite as simple as "devalued currency means more exports". Fortunately, or we would be in a race to the bottom ALL the time. Unfortunately we appear to be heading into currency wars now, which I think is immensely silly.
DeleteThis may well be an uneasy thing to admit, especially for a very caring person who is smart and also with banking experience, Frances, but even the best regulators on planet Earth cannot regulate something which they are totally unfamiliar with. What am I getting at? Well, suppose you had the 100 smartest people on Earth, in terms of commerce and banking at your disposal as head of the BoE - even in this sunny example, there stands very little chance that said group could even begin to fully understand exactly what is 'in the banking system'. The numbers (of transactions) and the complexity of derivatives and off balance sheet shenanigans is so extreme that you simply have to throw your hands up in the air and leave it to the markets.
ReplyDeleteIt is not possible to regulate what you do not know.
No, it is probably not possible fully to understand or regulate it. It is a distributed system largely in private hands and parts of which are deliberately concealed from view.
DeleteI regard our monetary system as having considerable similarities to a living organism. Circumscribe its activities by all means. But if you prevent it doing what it is designed to do - which is to take risk for a return - you kill it. And because of the symbiotic relationship between the monetary system and the real economy, if you kill your monetary system you also wreck the real economy. The current quest for safety at any price is immensely dangerous in my view.
I regard our monetary system as having considerable similarities to a living organism? Such wise thinking! People would do well to concede this very fundamental point to you, which for some reason seems to get lost in all the noise. A fine scientific scholar from England who is doing much to propound this view you seem to accept - that the economy is a type of organism and not a mechanical machine - is Rupert Sheldrake. If you will forgive me the liberty, I link below to 2 overviews of his exciting for which you may consider if we are lucky.
ReplyDeleteA 4 minute overview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD2qScZlvYE
1 hour overviews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1yXeZnQcQo
The below touches on renewable energy, an area the UK is arguably a global leader in:
Dispelling Dogmas and Opening New Frontiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJYrbyYFuuU
Can I sign you onto some debt without your consent, Aziz?
ReplyDeleteNo, of course not – that would be anarchy!
http://economics.org.au/2011/08/government-is-in-a-state-of-anarchy/
The global banking system is, therefore, ‘decoupling’ from the State, slowly but surely, like the Church once did. At least in the West. This is positive news for Peace & Commerce.
Disconnect bondholders and bankers from government?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-25/why-the-founding-fathers-loved-the-national-debt.html
You mean to say, disinter-mediate finance to consumers from government? That would be like combining Kickstarter with Bitcoin, no?
One can perhaps wonder, if Google were to just float the idea of toying with Bitcoin, what exactly would ensue? Chaos? I doubt that very much, of course, but also have no real idea, except to say that I don’t think such a thing would cause anybody a great deal of harm.
Combined with an Internet that is 100x quicker? Surely, then, such a thing could maybe even yield a positive result, for both the rich and the poor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/google-fiber-provides-faster-internet-and-cities-hope-business-growth/2013/01/25/08b466fc-6028-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_story.html?hpid=z2
Umm. You don't understand the financial system if you think it is decoupling from government. On the contrary, the ties are getting ever closer.
DeleteWell, despite my disagreeing with you very strongly about certain things, I find that it's nevertheless reassuring to have someone as smart as yourself in touch with the blogosphere talking seriously with FT employees.
ReplyDeleteAnd even meeting them for lunch and drinks!
DeleteI must, also, say: the FT has over the past month or so been producing some really superb, incisive analysis. I have no idea why, but it reads like everybody over at the FT have all of a sudden become far smarter! Surely this can only be a positive development...here's hoping
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me France & feel free to delete this msg as I know it's not really related to your post above, but what do you think of carbon trading? For long while I disliked but Aziz's latest is now making me think twice.
ReplyDeleteA chap who worked for the World Bank on carbon pricing etc lives in the UK and had a powerful effect on persuading Australia to adopt its forward leaning stance towards the new green economy, and insofar as I trust you don't like the idea of people starving or non-stop war over resources, emerging technology for new means of (cheaper?) energy may quite seriously provide some, much needed, relief to a hard done by society...So, what do you think?
I have lots to say on this subject and am planning a post soon. In general I would support anything that moves us away from oil and towards alternative technologies that could at some point in the future give us cheap effective and clean energy. I'm just not convinced we are supporting the right initiatives yet.
DeleteVery good post.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this which was sent to me by Fullfact.org. I have now subscribed to your blog.
ReplyDeleteGreat Britain has been burning the candle at both ends since the 2nd WW. When you look at Mick Jagger you will know what I mean, the UK has withered on the vine for sure.
ReplyDeleteYep just wanted to add my appreciation for a wonderful, common-sense post, written in an engaging, breezy style. Have subscribed
ReplyDeleteDouglas
Hello,
ReplyDeleteThanks for a very interesting article.
Does your analysis assume that the UK economy will return to the 2 to 3% trend growth rate?
Hi Postkey. Thanks for quoting me on the Telegraph!
DeleteYes, I think eventually it will. But it could take a long time. I don't agree with MoneyWeek about imminent collapse, but I do think we are in for a long period of stagnation or, more likely, stagflation. We have a severely damaged financial sector, and households and corporates still have far too much debt. And government attempts at fiscal consolidation are not helping matters. Not much organic growth is going to happen while that remains the case.
The biggest risk to growth as I see it is actually energy. Energy costs are rising and will continue to do so. Energy saving measures are all very well, but as all growth depends on energy, attempts to minimise energy use are bound to slow the economy down. That's a secular trend that could keep growth below 2% for much longer - really until we can solve the energy cost problem. Roll on efficient solar, I say.
As everybody else, you ignore the impact of the current policies to the youth and to the tenants.
ReplyDeleteBoth have to live:
-With low savings rates which do not allow them to gather the deposit
-Ridiculous high house prices which they cannot afford
-High inflation which does not allow them to save
-High rents.
So I loose sleep over these people, and not over home (bank)- owners who made the wrong decision to invest in the housing ponzi scheme.
here, here, this is at the heart of this -the redistribution of wealth away from the young upcoming working and middle class to politicians and their banker buddies
DeleteThanks for your post Frances - good work!
ReplyDeleteWhilst I agree with your comment that future obligations do not impact on current cash flow, I am a little surprised that you dismiss them so lightly.
ReplyDeleteIn no small part our increase in the standard of living over the last half century has been paid for my the massive increase in the level of these unaccounted for future obligations and the ability of the various Governments to treat contributions towards things like future pensions, care costs and health service costs as if they were income.
It depends on what one includes in the entitlements of pensioners as to how the figures work out, but my back of an envelope calculations would put the size of the pot required to fund these, in the same way as companies are required to fund their pension obligations, at about £7.5 trillion. Add on the official national debt and the civil service pension obligations and you are getting close to £10 trillion.
The big problem is that as the bulk of this is not accounted for, no interest provision is made and without this and taking account of inflation on the benefits, this number continues to rocket.
If the Government was required to account for these obligations, in the same way as companies are, then we could well be in the area of debt to GDP that they tricked up in their report. Of course, so would most other developed nations.
If the Scots vote for independence in 2014, how will it affect the British economy?
ReplyDeleteHello Frances,
ReplyDeleteLooking through my 'cuttings' I came across this:
I thought you may be interested?
"jon livesey on Jan 3, 6:28 PM said:
This article is meaningless. It adds together three entirely different things. Government debt is net debt. It is owed to someone, and the country is on the hook to pay it.
Financial debt is gross. It is debt taken on the buy interest yielding assets. It is paid back out of the profits from owning those assets. A major financial centre will always have high *gross* debt, but its net debt will be close to zero.
Commercial debt is taken on to buy businesses. It is paid back from the profits of running those businesses.
For what it's worth, Luxembourg has 3445% of GDP in gross debt."
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2011/12/31/debt-britannia/#ixzz1o9jUwsGI
However, this comment is no longer there.
Err why don't you try adjusting increases in benefits versus the national wage after tax rather than to inflation
ReplyDeletethen it will become obvious how much money the government has been giving away
Why don't you look at the net cost of providing benefits?
DeleteEg. The bottom 10% of households have an average gross income of £9622 and pay an average of £4621 {48.03%} in direct and indirect taxes.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/historical-data/sum--historical-tables.html
Table 14: income, tax and benefit data by income decile for all households (1.41 Mb Excel sheet)
Hi Frances,
ReplyDeleteI've seen some of your work on the internet and appreciate your efforts. However, I see the moneyweek article as downplaying (and late) in explaining what will happen in the coming decade.
Yes, adjusted for inflation, the charts look less scary. Yes, Moneyweek is trying to sell more subscriptions (and desperately, because the bottom is falling out from under Britain) That doesn't negate the fact that this is a big one which will take most people by surprise. Think 'Fall of Roman Empire' and multiply by 10. Your picking on Moneyweek for their errors is commendable, but don't let quantophrenia and normalcy bias prevent you from seeing the truth.
Prepare accordingly.
Blah Blah Blah
DeleteBlah Blah Blah BigWordIDontFullyUnderstandButIWillUseItAnyway Blah Blah Blah......
DeletePrepare Accordingly.
That's waht I got out of that Post.
I understand that I am focusing on a very small part of your article and probably a part you consider the least important but I'm an ordinary person living in rented accommodation with two disabled adult relatives, both studying at university and hoping to find work by doing so. My husband is one of them and is in his 50s. The only thing that keeps me from feeling as if I am staring over a financial precipice is the fact that my mother and father worked hard and saved during their lives and my mum now in her 80s would be able to be a safety net for us if the worst came to the worst. I have to say my heart sank when I read your attitude to savers. Savers *are* ordinary people and a lot of them are old and vulnerable and doing their best to be a rock for their relatives. My mum worries herself sick about her adult children and goes without (even though we keep telling her not to) because she wants to feel she can leave us something to help us when she is gone. A lot of savers aren't fat cats to be thrown to the wolves - they are people, sometimes people who are less able to look after themselves than some other very poor people. I am petrified she will hear about this negative interest rates for savers - I have no idea how I will be able to deal with what I know will be an immediate panic response from her. I understand that you deal with the big picture and politics and global economic strategies etc but it does make me sad (however naive and pathetic that may make me) when real people with real human concerns are implicitly dismissed. Maybe I misunderstood you - I do that sometimes - I am that much my mother's daughter. If so I would be glad to be put right.
ReplyDeleteThe dilemma facing policy makers is that protecting savers comes at the price of making things worse for people like your husband. When your husband completes his studies, he will be looking for work, which in the current climate will be very hard to find. Cutting interest rates encourages people with money to take more risk, which helps investment to flow into business and generate jobs and incomes for people. I know that people like your mother probably don't want to take more risk (and perhaps shouldn't). But if you had to choose between your husband's future job and your mother's savings, which would you choose?
DeleteDavidK: Might throw this here http://pro.moneyweek.com/myk-eob/LMYKP302/ so anyone watching it has had fine pre-debunking.
ReplyDeleteMoney Week 'The End of Britain' appears to be inspired by research by Dr Tim Morgan and his team. It is a convincing series of reports doubting the long term sustainability of the economy and the return to growth. It is compelling reading.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tullettprebon.com/strategyinsights/index.aspx
It's nowhere near as good as Tullett Prebon's research. I have concerns about Morgan's work too, because I suspect his conclusions are driven more by his ideological stance than a genuinely impartial view of the evidence. But he is a much tougher nut to crack than MoneyWeek.
DeleteFrances you are somewhat isolated in that your thoughts around the independence from any linking of currency offers the UK protectiuon from financial ruin.
ReplyDeleteIn fact your public net debt chart adjusted for inflation is somewhat worse than Moneyweek's. It actually shows a worse situation in the 1950's.
The fact is there is not going to be a resolution to any of our growing debt problems until the welfare state, the NHS and immigration policies are radically change.
To suggest anything else borders on delusion.
Have we not already had a major financial collapse?
ReplyDeleteHi Frances. I will keep this as short as I can.
ReplyDeleteI came to this site to read a more balanced view to the "End Of Britain." I am glad to read both your views & other contributors facts.
The knowledge that it is presented by the marketing team really bothers me. Why? I am a marketer. I develop exactly the kind of "long sales copy", there is a classic IM formula working within the piece. The Link to the Landing page & redirect is all textbook stuff. It is really well constructed and executed. Its what I produce every day.
So with that out the way it would be normal for me to dispute perhaps exaggerated or "morphed" facts to create an opinion. "All Marketers are liars"...Right? Your recalculated (with inflation) charts do in some way re-balance the charts from the E.O.B Site.
Now the Caveat to my reply. Have you gone through carefully the reports from Prebon's research? Or from the Pimco article
http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Credit-Supernova.aspx
Historic figures we have but the fact that both UK & US growth is reaching its peak, a billion more people will be added to our planet soon, peak oil is almost here (especially cost ratio extraction to ROI profits), major climate pollution is effecting us right now EG Arctic circle reduction directly effecting today's UK climate & gas supplies/cost, etc
These issues are crossing borders of all our intel. I have tried my best to dispute the Moneyweek Vid & Sales pitch as you just read. Stripping down to the bone & not even covering
the actual control debt system of Fiat, Shadow Banking (who really knows what are the true figures hidden in the secret balance sheets www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencehunter/2012/10/29/are-federal-reserve-regulated-banks-laundering-dirty-money/), the present currency wars and China's massive increase in Gold mines & acquisition.
My personal conclusion is that there seems to be a small almost whisper type voice in the wilderness saying "Please...no more" among the few. I am sure there are many non bankers, just ordinary people reading this blog asking what are our alternatives. I have read about positivemoney recently and it seems there is movement & a discourse developing with those as concerned as I am.
I would really like to hear your honest views on this & perhaps together we can suggest & act upon some new way of "living"
I would be the last person on earth to suggest that we are not living through a time of permanent change, that we can simply return to a past "golden age". We certainly can't. I've read Dr. Tim Morgan's report at Tullett Prebon and I've read Pimco's analysis. I am not as negative: I think there are huge changes in progress that actually could make life very much better, not worse. But we cannot stay as we are. There has to be a fundamental change in the way we order society, the relationship between the public and private sectors, between income and work, between generations, between countries.
DeleteI do not support Positive Money's campaign. I have read their work and had extensive discussions with them about their ideas, and although I can see what they are trying to achieve, I think they are going the wrong way about it. If you read back through my blogs you will see that I have written extensively about this.
"There has to be a fundamental change in the way we order society, the relationship between the public and private sectors, between income and work, between generations, between countries"
DeleteIsn't there a difficulty in both denying the possibility of major crisis and arguing that we need all this change? Human societies and institutions are very clearly resistant to sudden change, since there are always powerful vested interests defending any status quo - and so it normally takes a crisis (or several) before the unavoidability of change is accepted.
Or, to put the same point the other way around, what happens when all this change that you rightly say we need does not actually happen as fast as it needs to?
Hey Frances. Lets discuss more please? I want to read more about your ideas...
ReplyDelete"There has to be a fundamental change in the way we order society, the relationship between the public and private sectors, between income and work, between generations, between countries."
Please point me to articles that shows me your mindset.
I have a team of people at my disposal to "Morph" the net.
Thank you for this post. I was actually shaking by the time I finished the Money Week letter. Now balance is restored. You have a new subscriber!
ReplyDeleteNorth Korea and the Money Week marketing team. Compare and compare.
ReplyDeleteMMM continue with this trash. Only difference is that it is longer. Now my relatives are writing to me asking what is going on.
The bottom line may be that Money Week was taken over by a US publisher in 2003.
Frances' excellent rebuttal is doubly useful. You can read it and it supports the existence of the critique in Wiki.
Graham Cox
Very useful read
ReplyDeleteI read all of the MW article. And I wasn't even tempted by their 3 issue free offer once!
ReplyDeleteWhilst it is certainly true that if the Government carries on doing what its doing things will get worse, I don't think the country will collapse!
Society to some degree maybe as things like crime increase as people turn to desperate measures to survive.
I have emailed them asking if their article 'The end of Britain?' concerns the whole of the UK or just Britain, considering that Scotland is in effect a separate country.
I await their response...
Well, after contacting them on the 8th and asking the above I finally heard from them on the 12th.
Delete"Your comment has been passed onto the editorial department.'
Since when has a question been a comment! It's now the 17th, still waiting...
After all the money spent and time spent researching this chilling revelation, where you'd think they'd have the facts at hand for a simple question like that, they still can't answer!
Perhaps they don't know...
Well they clearly don't know the difference between 'Britain' and 'UK' since I've not heard a thing from them. Based on that evidence alone, could anyone trust anything Moneyweek print? I certainly can't!
DeleteI stumbled upon Money Week's article rather than actively sought it out but like a good many people in Britain, I suppose, the title 'The End of Britain' grabbed my attention. It seemed to be addressing my fears in a very clear and direct way. It was of course immediately apparent that it was written as a marketing ploy; there was no trying to hide that fact as far as I can see but, despite that and despite the somewhat misleading statistics, I could not help but see a certain underlying truth in the article; we are living beyond our means both as individuals and as a nation. We all know, I think, intuitively that if we in our personal lives wish to live beyond our means then we must beg steal or borrow the extra we need. All very well until the day of reckoning when people get fed up with our begging, we get caught stealing or the lenders want their money back; then we are in trouble. The same principle operates at national level and the all clever financial algorithms or all the claims of a brighter technological future will not change a thing; bad housekeeping is bad housekeeping. Of course individuals are not necessarily to blame for the mess they get in, it is inherent in human nature to gather and store as much material wealth as possible with the minimum outlay of effort and it is the job of elected government to regulate this instinct and create a fair and equal society. The trouble is; governments are made up of individuals too and more often than not, very ambitious individuals who apply their human nature on a national scale. It is not in the interest of ambitious individuals in government to pass legislation that would make them unpopular and so very little is done to curb our individual bad housekeeping and in fact positively encourage it by allowing us to be brainwashed by manufacturers into believing that we need all manner of useless products and then enticed by financial institutions to take out loans to pay for them. This general proliferation of the selfish individual is what creates the problems in our society. The welfare state is a more welcome manifestation of a fair and equal society and no reasonable person would wish to see an end to the safeguard that that offers us in times of misfortune. But, once again human nature enters the equation and because of bad housekeeping it becomes increasingly expensive to operate the welfare system as the ratio of contributors to recipients changes unfavourably; as it must in a society with increasing population, low productivity and increasing life expectancy. Many hard-working people might well bemoan the fact that in this fair societies assessment of the financial and housing needs of a family on benefits often outstrips their own meager home and income. But, there is, so we are told, a solution to all this; economic growth! How tired I am of hearing that term. Doesn't solves anything at all! Economic growth is the panacea of an incompetent government. As independent scientist James Lovelock said,'what we need is not sustainable growth but a sustainable retreat'. Just as the growth biological growth we call cancer eventually kills the afflicted body, economic growth eventually kills a society. I am 61 years old today and I can remember times when life was so much better and, rather perversely, many of those times are now used as a reference to illustrate how much better off we all are today. Yes, we may have more material wealth; things, but I for one would argue that our quality of life has suffered badly for that. In my opinion it is better by far to go to sleep poor knowing that you will wake up poor than have all the material wealth in the world and, if can can sleep at all, wake up not knowing if today you will lose it all.
ReplyDeleteThere is no need to fear the coming of the end of Britain it is already here.
I am neither an expert of spelling or financial matters but I an fairly sure that copy that contains mis-spelling should not be taken that seriously
ReplyDeletesomething that we believe will 'distabilise' the very foundations of Britain
Maybe they want to 'distil' Britain?!
DeleteHi frances
ReplyDeleteI read your blog with enthusiasm as it was debunking an article which has had me perturbed since I read it..
I notice you said in the articles above that Britain has its own central bank and issues its own currency, thus it could never run out of money? ( Weimar republic guarantees to its people?)
I think it would be pertinent of you to explain that the Central bank is a private company and Issues ALL money as debt to each borrowing government.
Would not a dual system of monetary exchange be a better model for long term sustainability?
Centrally administered currency for investment at interest?
and then a form 'Greenback' currency such as the 'Bradbury pound' issued by government for the running of the country and exchange of good and services, created debt free?
why should any government pay interest on fiat currency for the day to day tasks of running a country?
If they pay for a pothole to be filled, the current system carries interest for the money lenders?
Each and every government fiscal transaction, carries the weight of interest..yet it is backed by the people, for the people.
the spiralling national debts around the world are out of control and thus constantly create boom and bust cycles to the detriment of all but the money lenders
This way we would have a balance, we could counter the national debt with alternative currency which will not create hyper inflation on the pound sterling.
This would surely create a fiscal system of slow growth and sustainability, allowing trade to prosper and create enough revenue for the country to regain control of its future
kind regards
9
It would be pertinent to say that if it were true. But it is not.
DeleteThe Bank of England was nationalised in 1946. It is wholly owned by Her Majesty's government. And it does not issue money as debt. It is charged by Her Majesty's Government with the responsibility for issuing bank notes and for providing liquidity to the banking system, in addition to its responsibility for monetary policy. Money issued by the central bank is not debt in any normal sense of the word - technically it is more like equity.
Nor does the central bank lend to the government. Her Majesty's Government issues debt in the form of bonds and bills which are bought by investors in the private sector. The central bank is not allowed to participate in a primary auction of these bonds and bills, though it may buy them on the secondary market as part of its conduct of monetary policy.
Nearly all money in circulation in the economy is created by commercial banks as a consequence of bank lending, not by the central bank.
Thanks for your reply Francis.
DeleteI do concede that the bank was nationalised, but this was and is not the full story..
here is an excerpt from a blog, of which there are many online
The Bank Of England was originally a private bank, which contracted to lend money to the British Government in a financial crisis. It was privately owned at its foundation and remained so until the post-war Labour government nationalised it in 1946.
So it is owned by the government?
No.
Here is how Wikipedia explains it.
In 1977, the Bank set up a wholly owned subsidiary called Bank of England Nominees Limited, (BOEN), a private limited company, with 2 of its 100 £1 shares issued. According to its Memorandum & Articles of Association, its objectives are:- “To act as Nominee or agent or attorney either solely or jointly with others, for any person or persons, partnership, company, corporation, government, state, organisation, sovereign, province, authority, or public body, or any group or association of them….”
Bank of England Nominees Limited was granted an exemption by Edmund Dell, Secretary of State for Trade, from the disclosure requirements under Section 27(9) of the Companies Act 1976 , because, “it was considered undesirable that the disclosure requirements should apply to certain categories of shareholders.” The Bank of England is also protected by its Royal Charter status, and the Official Secrets Act.
In other words, you and I are not allowed to know who the shareholders are who own the company which carries out Central Banking in the UK. Some people say that Mandelson's buddies, the Rothschilds are major shareholders. Also the Queen. But the information is secret. We are not allowed to know.
But what would surprise everybody is that the Bank Of England, which is entitled to issue cash, then lend it and charge interest to the government, is still essentially a private business.
What would also surprise people is so is the Federal Reserve of America a privately owned bank, and all central banks of the world, including the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland, which is the Central Banks' clearing house.
You see debt is controlled by persons other than the government of most nations.
Actual printing of debt free currency needs to take place along side debt currency to create a balance
The system we have is only debt currency this creates compound interest..to the tune of £47 Billion this year alone
With all these harsh cuts and privatisation due to lack of 'funds', its clear for all to see that that the current system is flawed and does NOT serve humanity, nor the environment, but only the money creators/lenders.
our national debt is approx £1.2 trillion..
and rising..at the current rate it will take around 400 years to pay it off, IF we accrued no more debt..which is highly unlikely.
The introduction of a greenback currency for each Government to run its country is essential imho, and the continued creation of debt created currency for private investment purposes.
If you total up the world debts to countries around the world and make a chart, you will see the increase over the years is growing debt..bad news for the people and the planet good news for the money creators and lenders!
regards 9
Oh dear. A subsidiary of a company cannot in any sense be regarded as "owning" it. On the contrary - it is OWNED BY the company. In this case, the Bank of England is wholly owned by HMT. It has a nominee subsidiary, wholly owned by itself (and therefore also wholly owned by HMT) which is partially exempt from FOI requests because among other things it manages the Queen's investments. You CANNOT deduce from that that the Bank of England is in private ownership or that the central banking activities it carries out are controlled by the nominee shareholders of BOEN.
DeleteThe Feds are indeed in private ownership. However, even there the situation is not quite that simple: they are in the same relationship to the US Government as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - in effect, they are agents of government, licensed to carry out activities mandated by government. They are not free to do whatever they please, as you seem to think.
All other major central banks are owned by their governments, not by the private sector as you suggest.
BIS was founded by the Rothschilds but is now owned by its member central banks, not by private individuals. It is therefore a supranational quasi-government institution.
I really think your private sector conspiracy theory has no legs.
I have a load of debt. I tried borrowing my way out of it but that didn't seem to work so I was greatly relieved to read that what I thought was a burden is in fact a salable commodity. Anyone want to buy it? A snip at £1.00!
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't the Bank of England just print enough currency to make us all rich? We wouldn't have to worry then. And, a bonus for the government, they would get a big tax windfall.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your analysis of this scary report on MoneyWeek. I am not especially familiar with their tone, and this was one of the first articles I read on their website. It is alarmingly similar to "The End of America" (see discussion here http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/end-america-porter-stansberry-research/52205), and has left me with the feeling that I cannot trust anything on MoneyWeek.
ReplyDeleteI used to subscribe to MoneyWeek. They comment on that many things that they can't possibly lose. Make 1001 predictions then pick out the winners. They're also obsessed with gold. I stopped subscribing 3 months ago so don't know if they predicted the recent fall in the gold price. Though I suspect they probably predicted it would continue to rise in one edition, and crash in another. So they were right again!
ReplyDeleteJust found your blog by searching for the 'end of Britain'. A great read, thanks!
ReplyDeleteAdrian - I did it!!
ReplyDelete